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The Scottish Independence Referendum: The Great Diversion

Karl Liebknecht: “The basic law of capitalism is you or I, not you and I.”
One of the ruling class’s weapons in its armoury is its ability to mask the reality of the exploiter/exploited class relation. Its web of cultural constructs is aimed at obscuring that reality - and the weave of that web is religion, race, gender and above all, nationalism.

 Nationalism isn’t “natural”. It is manufactured. It is the particularly manufactured ideology of the capitalist class. For them it is the perfect expression of their rule. They can pretend that in the nation we are all “free” even if some of us are freer than others because they have more money (as Bernie Ecclestone so dramatically proved recently in a German court[1]). And when the capitalists tell us we are “all in it together” their frame of reference is the nation. When they exhort us once again to salute those who fought for “King and Country” they are dragging us into defence of their material interests. After all it is their country. They own it (and this goes for the ruling class everywhere). Wars are actually for defending and extending their property and to get us to support war they appeal to our supposed common “nationality”. And nationalism in Scotland is as manufactured as anywhere else.Read article in full here ..>
you can see for yourself what happened next.
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Comments

  I have a postal vote and put a, “Neither Yes nor No but World Socialism”,sticker on my paper.You can get these at spgb@worldsocialism.org
Here is a sample one.I hope the link works OK.

No thanks. The sticker actually moronically says "A vote's always worth using even if there is nothing to vote for". Spoiled ballots are counted as participants in a capitalist racket. Indifference and ergo abstention is the only really proletarian response.

I resent the 'moronic'.It is a considered and deliberate response.I don't have problem with you disagreeing.The vote was won through struggle and is a part of the revolutionary struggle.It is saying, "a plague on both camps".
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" part of the revolutionary struggle" does somewhat raise the question of why the ruling class and its media spend so much effort hyping up every election and referendumb. And yup, "The vote was won thahrough struggle" but a wee bit of historical context wouldnt go amiss. Religious freedom was won through struggle too - maybe I should be nippng down to the chapel on Sunday.

Well go figure.In a bourgeois democracy they have to legitimse their 'policing' i.e. government when different capitalist interests come into conflict, some assent is required.In a revolutionary situation the ballot box can be used to capture control of the armed forces to ensure guns can't be turned on the workers.The capitalists of course,will be using it to shower reforms or the promise of them to prevent this take over by the proletatiat.But a politically conscious working class will need the maturity,won from struggle etc. to ignore these blandishments.

This all assumes a ruling class passively watching parliament being 'captured' . When it wanted to avoid even a bourgeois faction like Irish Nationalists being elected, it just rushed through the 1981 'Reprahesentation of the People Act' to keep them out. Anything even remotely approaching a politically conscious working class would see both elections and Habeus Corpus suspended in the 'national interest'. As always, the SPGB swallows the myth of the primacy of parliament. Modern capitalist rule is far more complex and sophisticated. Even in the limited context of parliament, the braying mob on the benches are little more than stage extras.
I'd recommend having a look at Clive Ponting's 'Breach of Promise' that shows how in the Labour administration of 1964 onwards the major defence and economic decisions by the executive were run past America for approval before even the cabinet were aware of them.
Oh well prophecy is your gift not mine.I will advocate using whatever means are to hand.Peacefully if we can first, then violently if we must.I certainly won't be looking to leaderist types rushing to barricades prematurely.

 Without a majority of politically conscious workers you will have a jacobinistic/leninistic vanguardist bloodbath. With a majority of politically conscious workers electing recallable delegates with no mandate save revolution we will remove the red herring you posit re.labour party administration.
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"Oh well prophecy is your gift not mine."
It's not prophecy, it's just common sense and learning lessons from history. But the SPGB seem to think that nothing has happened since 1904.
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Your assumption that we are for a jacobin or leninist vanguard rushing the proletariat to the barricades is a caricature and just one of the many lazy lies we have heard from your previous leaders over the decades. A revolution can only come about when the majority of the working class (not the majority of society which you equate it with) can no longer carry on living under this system. We'll be part of that. You will be exhorting us to calm down and head for the Palace of Westminster. Sorry about the "moronic" but as we learned that cretins only biologically survive to age 5 or so we could not think of another word for a 110 year old body.

The SPGB don't have any leaders.You have taken it much too personally. As for 110 year old body, well socialism is an idea much older than that .
The SPGB has made a number of contributions to Marxist theory one of which is recognition of leadership as a capitalist political principle, a feature of the revolutions that brought them to power, and utterly alien to the socialist revolution. The socialist revolution necessarily involves the active and conscious participation of the great majority of workers, thus excluding the role of leadership.

Some more of those: 8 Contributions to Marxian Theory

The Socialist Party has also made its own contributions to socialist theory, in the light of further developments, going beyond some of the theories of socialist pioneers like Marx and Engels. We set out below a number of these contributions:
 1. Solving the Reform or Revolution dilemma, by declaring that a socialist party should not advocate reforms of capitalism, and by recognising that political democracy can be used for revolutionary ends.
  2. Realisation of the world-wide (rather than international) character of Socialism. Socialism can only be a united world community without frontiers, and not the federation of countries suggested by the word "inter-national."
  3. Recognition that there is no need for a "transition period" between capitalism and Socialism. The enormous increases in social productivity since the days of Marx and Engels have made superfluous a period, such as they envisaged, in which the productive forces would be developed under a State control, and in which consumption would have to be rationed. Socialism can be established as soon as a majority of workers want it, with free access.
  4. Rejection of any further progressive role for nationalism after capitalism became the dominant world system towards the end of the 19th century. Industrialisation under national State capitalism is neither necessary nor economically progressive.
  5. For the same reason, rejection of the idea of "progressive wars". Socialists oppose all wars, refusing to take sides.
  6. Exposures of leadership as a capitalist political principle, a feature of the revolutions that brought them to power, and utterly alien to the socialist revolution. The socialist revolution necessarily involves the active and conscious participation of the great majority of workers, thus excluding the role of leadership.
  7. Advocating and practising that a socialist party should be organised as an open democratic party, with no leaders and no secret meetings, thus foreshadowing the society it seeks to establish.
  8. Recognition that capitalism will not collapse of its own accord, but will continue from crisis to crisis until the working class consciously organise to abolish it.

The majority of the working class is the majority of society.There are only two classes.There is no middle class, however some perceive themselves.You assume too much. I have been a part of working class struggles all my life in factories and weaving sheds and elsewhere.So why, when there is a majority for revolution, should we advocate getting their heads shot off ?Such is infantile leftist posturing.
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The SPGB has the correct analysis of what a socialist society involves and would be more credible if it did not indulge in dishonest debating tricks with those whom it disagrees. You have given us three examples of SPGB debating style just in these posts on our site.
  1. Outright lies about an opponents position (some of you have Master degrees in this). What "infantile leftist posturing" are you referring to? What evidence do you have that we have any truck with the notion of "jacobinism" or any other idea that the party takes power. Our tendency split with Bordigism in the early 1950s precisely on rejecting that notion. As it stated inthe 1952 Platfrorm "The proletariat does not delegate to anyone not even its class party the task of building socialism".
  2. Deliberately misreading the subject of a sentence. We refer to the SPGB as a "body" you divert the criticism by referring to the historical vision of socialism which was not our point.
  3. Completely distorting an argument already made. When we said to you that socialism will come about when the majority of the working class want it and not the majority of society we are not disputing that the working class are the majority of society but in the electoral system they are not. The abstention rate is not made up of the educated middle class. And this brings us to you rejection of capitalist principles. The one you don't reject is voting. You don't seem to grasp Shug's point that this is the main way to reduce workers to passivity in the face of the system. Going along with it only reinforces capitalist domination over every individual worker and reinforces the notion that rinning things can be left to our "betters" in the ruling class. Socialism is not just about a fairer society. It is a society of active participants unlike any other previously in history. Its either that or its is not socialism. And we don't get there by encouraging passivity.
  4. And of course there is always the accusation of your opponent taking something "personally" when in fact that its precisely your own attitude (its you who indulged in the biographical details to prove your superior working class credentials). There is nothing in the least personal in our political differences and we have many comradely discussions with individual SPGB members wherever we meet (some even subscribe to our press).
I won't reply to your comment on not needing a period of transition between capitalism and socialism as we are discussing that ourselves but there is an article on it criticisng the SPGB position (among others) in Revolutionary Perspectives 04 which has just come out.
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"The SPGB has the correct analysis of what a socialist society involves and
would be more credible if it did not indulge in dishonest debating tricks
with those whom it disagrees. You have given us three examples of SPGB
debating style just in these posts on our site.
  1. Outright lies about an opponents position (some of you have Master degrees
in this). What "infantile leftist posturing" are you referring to?"
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Prolerat:
The posture of disavowing using the democratic process which workers have won the right to, flawed as it is, to propel socialists into the world's debating chambers,as recallable delegates for the purpose of propagating the revolution ,which is taking place outside of them and to ah confound any knavish tricks. 

Cleishbotham:"What evidence do you have that we have any truck with the notion of "jacobinism" or any other idea that the party takes power. Our tendency split with Bordigism in the early 1950s precisely on rejecting that notion. As it stated in the 1952 Platfrorm "The proletariat does not delegate to anyone not even its class party the task of building socialism".

Prolerat:
 I had a look it could be read that way. I'm not making such a charge of you. However disavowing the use of available working class democratic structures will open up the real probability of others being erected which are precisely jacobinistic.

You have also split the proletariat into two classes.The better educated, higher salaried, ones, you designate as middle class. 
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Cleishbotham
  1. Deliberately misreading the subject of a sentence. We refer to the SPGB as
a "body" you divert the criticism by referring to the historical vision of
socialism which was not our point.
  1. Completely distorting an argument already made. When we said to you that
socialism will come about when the majority of the working class want it and
not the majority of society we are not disputing that the working class are
the majority of society but in the electoral system they are not. The
abstention rate is not made up of the educated middle class."


Prolerat:
Well .There it is .No distortion on my part.Clarification.The 'educated', 'middle class' as you call them, are working class.There is no middle class.So the working class 'are' the majority in the electoral system.They run capitalism at the top and the bottom.If they 'have to' work for a wage or salary,even to send young Biggins to private school,they are working class.


Cleishbotham:"And this brings us to you rejection of capitalist principles. The one you don't reject is voting. You don't seem to grasp Shug's point that this is the main way to reduce workers to passivity in the face of the system. Going along with it only reinforces capitalist domination over every individual worker and
reinforces the notion that rinning things can be left to our "betters" in the
ruling class. Socialism is not just about a fairer society. It is a society
of active participants unlike any other previously in history. Its either
that or its is not socialism. And we don't get there by encouraging
passivity."

Prolerat :
 Marx must have been in the same frame of mind as ourselves then. We insist that workers DONT vote for us if they want reforms, but only to indicate support for revolution.We stand purely on a revolutionary platform hence the miniscule vote.The vote is for 'themselves' to run socialism.That is far from passivity.
 I am sure you will be familiar with Rubel:
Rubel also frequently quotes, with approval, from Engels' Preface to the 1890 German edition of the Communist Manifesto:
“For the ultimate triumph of the ideas set forth in the Manifesto Marx relied solely and exclusively on the intellectual development of the working class, as it necessarily had to ensue from united action and discussion.”

 Rubel even concedes (we say "concedes" since, as we shall see, he does not entirely agree with Marx here) that Marx held that the working class should take political action to end politics and the state and that one of the forms this could take was democratic electoral action:
“The economic and social barbarism brought about by the capitalist mode of production cannot be abolished by a political revolution prepared, organized and led by an elite of professional revolutionaries claiming to act and think in the name and for the benefit of the exploited and alienated majority. The proletariat, formed into a class and a party under the conditions of bourgeois democracy, liberates itself in the struggle to conquer this democracy; it turns universal suffrage, which had previously been ‘an instrument of dupery’, into a means of emancipation” (Marx critique du marxisme, p. 56).



Cleishbotham: And of course there is always the accusation of your opponent taking something "personally" when in fact that its precisely your own attitude (its
you who indulged in the biographical details to prove your superior working
class credentials).

Prolerat:
Far from it, we have been actively engaged in the class struggle all our lives.It was the slur that we would be trying to prevent, or impede the revolution, I was responding to.We would be as actively engaged as much in the day to day struggle as any others.It is a caricature of the SPGB position that we would be discouraging of any such events. They would have been reflected already in the political process.

Cleishbotham:"There is nothing in the least personal in our political differences and we have many comradely discussions with individual SPGB
members wherever we meet (some even subscribe to our press)."

Prolerat:
Moronic isn't a personal attack? Then a pretended apology 'since cretins' die early.Kindova bushwhacked here.
Below is important as to my response
I came onto the site because I broadly liked your post re the Referendum. We quoted it on one of our blogs along with an AF article (broadly a similar stance to yours) .
socialist-courier.blogspot.co.uk
I posted the same post that I posted here on the Anarchist Fed site, and it elicited no vitriolic comment on it whatsoever.
scotlandaf.wordpress.com

Cleishbotham:I won't reply to your comment on not needing a period of transition between capitalism and socialism as we are discussing that ourselves but there is an article on it criticisng the SPGB position (among others) in Revolutionary Perspectives 04 which has just come out.


Prolerat:
Well, the work has been done,the transitional period is 'inside' capitalism on the way to socialism,we should see different forms and structures beginning to emerge,exciting times such as we have never seen and the vote might/will seal the deal with a minimum of bloodshed.  We really have to capture the machinery of government to stand down the armed forces from an attack on the revolution and to use, if there is any resistance to the will of the people.

Discount this at your peril.We can agree to disagree no problems.

You continue to misrepresent my position (below)*.


Cleishbotham:"You cannot "vote for revolution". Class conscious majority's do not express themselves by voting in bourgeois parliaments but in action.

Cleishbotham: They are not being asked to vote in a bourgeois parliament. We have also never said that you will be an obstruction to revolution. You will be irrelevant.

Prolerat:
Let us hope not so.I think we will find socialists of my kind fully engaged with what works best in the then revolutionary situation, even if it means disbanding our organisation and joining others.


Cleishbotham:The fact that you once again refer to the fact that in the past the workers struggled for the vote demonstrates your fundamental inability to
move with history as the young comrade Gepetto says. We do not agree to
disagree. We continue to argue against this oxymoron that revolution can come *only through the passive act of voting. "

Prolerat:
 I have never argued this...'only'. Of course, establishing socialism is not just a question of voting for a socialist candidate and waiting for a majority of socialist MPs to vote it in (much as people do today who vote for a party which promises some reform of capitalism).
People have to have organised themselves outside parliament into a mass democratic socialist party, into trade unions and other workplace organisations, into neighbourhood councils and the like.
The socialist MPs would be merely the delegates – the messenger boys and girls – of the organised socialist majority outside parliament.
So, we have in mind a democratic, majority political revolution which begins with the winning of political power via the ballot box by a socialist-minded majority. The majority then uses this control of political power to dispossess the capitalist class, declaring all property titles, all stocks and shares, all bills and bonds, all limited liability companies and corporations null and void.
This means that the means of production become the common heritage of all.
The socialist majority can also co-ordinate the physical take-over of the means of production by people outside parliament, organised and ready to do this and keep production going.

It is you who has to tell me, how else the armed forces and the minute man missiles can be prevented from firing on the people?
No it wasn't his problem, but his insightful reading of events which were undreamed of in his early days.The extension of the franchise could be capitalism's Achilles heel.His thoughts were on the bloodbath of the suppression of the Paris Commune.
And bourgeoisie will just sit and watch and the SPGB will ride the unicorn on the rainbow into socialism without spilling a drop of blood? Sorry only a kid could think this is a clever idea.
In real world capitalism would just pull a Pinochet out of its sleeve to disband the parliament and jail or execute troublesome MPs.

This is a parody on a revolutionary situation.What is it you don't get? The revolution will already be on the streets in the factories in the unions in the councils.

 Workers will be revolutionary in the army, in government agencies, on TV ,the media.There is a vast difference to a real revolutionary situation and dissent.
Capturing the various houses of representation, will prevent the Pinochets of the world. That wasn't a revolutionary situation.When there is a real majority of workers as opposed to a tiny percentage is a different scenario to the one which saw Pinochet come to power.

 In any case government has to be transformed from an administration over people, into a facilitative administration of 'things'.

"The revolution will already be on the streets in the factories in the unions in the councils."
On the streets you say? So not as peacefully as you claimed.

I would not claim to tell the future ,but I would expect it to be extremely disciplined and peaceful.

Yes, the 'dominant' ideas are, as you say. Why is this? Capitalism seeks and has to manufacture assent. But our perceptions are tempered by real life. Our assent is also conditional.We are not brain washed zombies.It doesn't matter if they call it 'macaroni' rather than socialism.There are already ideas floating about about free access.
The Zeitgeist movement is one example.This seems a pretty technocratic outfit to me ,but the point is ,the variance from the dominant paradigm.
The majority must perceive they have a common interest in getting rid of wage slavery.

Splendid! So do you hold infamous Menshevik position about Russia "not being ready to socialism" and needing bourgeois revolution first? There are no national roads to socialism.
The Russian Revolution Socialist Standard April 1917

The outstanding feature of the past month in the domain of public affairs is undoubtedly the “Russian Revolution”. That this is an event of some importance in the development of human society cannot be denied, but its importance is far less than, and lies mainly in an altogether different direction from that which the capitalist Press of the whole capitalist world would have us believe.
Far from it heralding the dawn of freedom in Russia, it is simply the completion of the emancipation of the capitalist class in Russia which started in the “emancipation” of the serfs some seventy years ago – in order that they might become factory slaves. The revolution’s greatest importance from the working-class view-point is that it brings the workers face to face with their final exploiters.
You will find much of interest in these archives.
I don't want to abuse ICL's hospitality by sticking up articles or extracts.
Socialist Standard Archives
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