In France, les poulets are coming home to roost
prolerat • 13 hours ago Taxation is a burden on the capitalist class.Even the state capitalist class.It is a trade off.Give reforms and cradle to grave social security or get revolution eventually.Personally I am in favour of getting off our knees and making the revolution.The capitalist class will throw reforms at us.prolerat • 13 hours ago ..and it is not socialism anyway.It is state capitalism.It is also in fear of the democratic will of the people to some extent.No bad thing I would have thought.
Discussion on Telegraph
Ed Miliband: only Labour can rebuild our middle class
hyufd - Even with communal ownership you will still have murders, rapes, divorces etc which will all need lawyers to adjudicate on. In Cuba now over 70% of industry is owned by the state, if that is not socialism what is. The fact is any socialist society always has a lower GDP per capita than a capitalist one which is why most people do not support it and do not want to see their property confiscated, even if they support everyone having a basic means of support. Given the choice between your commune and the opportunity to be rewarded for the work they do most people will take the latter. To take a classic example, if someone who is hard working finds all the products of his labour redistributed equally to someone who does no work at all that hits society both ways, the hard workers will work less hard as he gets no reward for his labours and the lazy worker will see no need to work hard and will become even more lazy as he knows he will be amply rewarded even if he does no work at all!
- prolerat • Reply Your work example is a variation of the ‘Human Nature’ argument.It assumes a mindset which carries over from capitalism.The majority who make the revolution won’t be amenable to its failure.When asked ,”who will do the dirty work” the socialists reply,”Me”.Cuba is not an example of a socialist society.It still has waged labour and capital.Workers don’t own and control the means and instruments for producing and distributing wealth the state does.So GDP in statist countries is irrelevant.How can it be socialism in one tiny country anyway? Is GDP a measure of human happiness anyway.I am looking at the facts of 18 thousand children dieing every day in capitalism.Does the fact of the part of the world I live in having a bouncy GDP make me happier about that?Socialism will be a global society.Whatever sort of criminal behaviour proceeds from a society where we all own everything in common can be deliberated upon by the populace in general.We wont need to adjudicate on property division or divorce in a free society. Juries can do most of the other stuff.It is unlikely that a set of codified Laws or Rules will be needed save for safety reasons…But we will need to get there.I can’t really do more than speculate.Is it likely that rape will persist in anything like the numbers it does today, when power relations have been removed.Will people still try to dominate or possess sexual partners?I doubt it.There is much discussion about these matters in socialist circles.You can see by my reply where I am at so far.Do you know what the murder rate or rape rate is in Cuba?
prolerat • 14 hours ago No .We won’t need lawyers.We will just split up from relationships.There won’t be any estates to divide up.Any murders will be dealt with by the community however they decide to organise it.It remains to be seen if rape will occur in anything like the proportion it does in capitalism with its macho, competitive, dominance, ethos.Women will be revolutionaries too, who make the new society in their interests.They won’t be subjugated or submissive to power being exercised over them.It is state capitalism in Cuba.They still have waged labour and the state is organised as the main employer.They also have regular capitalism and this is bound to increase as the embargo is lifted.You are not comparing socialism with capitalism but with different methods of administering capitalism. Nationalisation has nothing to do with socialism.A free access society means no-one is left out ,but we have equal access.This doesn’t imply that we take equally some will need more and take it some less.Access will be self-determined.prolerat • 14 hours ago Getting it into some perspective.The richest 85 people in the world have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5bn.prolerat • 14 hours ago Twice I have tried to reply to you.Your human nature argument is a religious one.Human behaviour is a social construction and is determined by social conditions.
prolerat stocasticus
I see the moderator has allowed your rant but not my reply to all the points.
I reject tour ‘Human Nature’ argument totally.it is religious argument incorporating a flawed human who is predisposed to ‘sin’ etc.Absolute stuff and nonsense.
Rather I see it as human behaviour which is socially conditioned.In a dog eat dog competitive environment which is stratified and rewards this by riches,spoils,loot then behaviour which outwith the competitive norms is seen as ‘loser’ type and within those norms,only sinful or ant-social if caught out,as criminal, before success throws them to the top of the heap of looters, buccaneers.
Socialism/Communism as I use the terms, mean the same thing ,as Marx used them,interchangeably.i.e. The common ownership and democratic control of all the means and instruments for producing and distributing wealth.
The Soviet Union was State capitalist with some private capitalism.The E/U definitely capitalist enterprise with some reformist and statist direction, but hell it was after two world wars.The same situation about state intervention applied across the globe where countries had run their railways into the ground and industries had been regimented for war production.
You said,”We have societies because we have rules which inflict penalties on those who break them. ”
No ,we have rules because you have societies and in class societies it is the powerful who shape this process.Once they have nicked the loot they have to hang onto it after all.If the rules get in the way they have ‘learned’ assistance to change them.(The best government,law,education, money can buy etc.)
Hence the dominant ideas in class society are always those of the ruling class.The banking industry isn’t a law free stage, but it is a powerful vested interest, so carries a lot of clout.The point of capitalism in boom times is you keep raking in what cash is going.It will all happen again,but that is the essential anarchic nature of the market.It is not amenable to being interfered with or cries of ‘socialism by the back door’, will emanate from which ever group of vested interest capitalists are hurting .
By the way,”Thou shalt not kill ” was a moral absolute and this sacred tenet has been much modified by religious bodies as part of the ideological reinforcement of dominant values,to fit the acquisitive impulses of leaders,aspirant leaders,states etc.
You also assume a flawed assumption which I do not have.I don’t counterpose your bad,or inoncorrect,’human nature’ moral argument with an opposite,”absolutely good and honest”one.Far from it.
My argument is not a moral argument,but a material one.Simply put, that such behaviour as hoarding,more than is needed will just be seen, as intrinsically disordered or just eccentric, in a free access society.If you take more than you need you will stink your house out.We won’t need to engage in anti-social behaviours. We don’t hoard the air we breath so it would amount to this type of silliness.
They don’t need to feel it in their hearts.It is in their heads they need to know it.That it is in their immediate economic and political interest to overthrow the dominant class in society and establish a new one where no class is dominant and all wealth is owned in common and controlled democratically in conditions of free access.Once they have this level of political awareness then they will resist the reforms which the capitalist class suddenly feel able to throw at them.The Soviet Union,China, etc were jacobinistic style leader led ,products of overthrowing feudalism.They were not and could not be proletarian revolutions but capitalist ones.You will need to do some reading from a real socialist perspective.
There is nothing metaphysical about Marx or me.Capitalism won’t last forever.Marx makes a materialist argument as I do.It is your intrinsically flawed,ideologically reinforced,incorrect, ‘Human Nature’ argument which is more of a metaphysical one.
I have made it abundantly clear I don’t support the idea of professional revolutionaries.This is a left-right wing delusion.If we ever put up candidates presently, we insist that people ‘don’t’ vote for us, just in protest,we don’t want pseudo supporters or numbers of ignorant cadres, but only to vote if they understand and support the revolutionary ideas some of which I have outlined.
Socialists of my kind don’t have leaders and will not be leaders.
The battle of ideas wont be won by gulled supporters, but by convinced workers resolute and determined to form a revolutionary majority for an idea which time has come, and nothing will stop.prolerat • 14 hours ago None the less. There are some exceptionally highly paid workers.You will have exceptions to the general rule.Lawyers are prized as they help the capitalist class legitimate their ownership of their plunder.It also conforms to the “labour theory of value”,where the value of a commodity is determined by the amount of socially necessary labour time incorporated within it, and Market rates for surgeons set for the surgeons commodity,”labour time” in a rigged market also.There will be no need for lawyers when everything is commonly owned, but surgeons will still be a highly regarded occupation.The difference will be that the choice of medicine will be undertaken for the social rewards,to heal the sick,I am sure most or a lot of medical people work from this perspective, rather than a financial one.I reject totally the idea that socialism has ever existed, even in embryonic form in any of these countries. A convenient ideology reinforcing fiction.It was state capitalism.Lenin himself admitted ,”state capitalism would be a step forward for us”.The US defence secretary or Sec. odf State john Foster Dulles, under Eisenhour administration at the time, prior to the missile crisis,said this to Kruschev that,” what you have is state capitalism”.prolerat • 18 hours ago The US version is neither proper nor accurate.They do not constitute a social class i.e. with specific class interests in relation to the means of production and distribution of resources.They are ,if they have to work for a living for a wage or salary,working class, who have more in common with fellow workers from a class interest perspective,than with the rich or capitalist or parasite class.
The British version is also a flawed,ideological cultural construct, designed to deflect from actual class position and where economic interests i.e.IOW getting rid of the capitalist class and ultimately ending social divisions in conditions of free access…prolerat • a day ago Again.How can these be defined as middle class?They are only a couple of paychecks away from a foodbank. They are wageslaves like the rest of us.
Discussion on Common Drea
Saturday, 25 January 2014
Telegraph Discussions
Sunday, 24 October 2010
Afghanistan - Lying about dying

Among the rituals so consoling to our Servants of the People in Westminster is the solemn roll call of the names of recently fatal casualties of the Afghanistan war proceeding to formulaic assurances of grief, of sympathy for family and friends and an assertion, defiant of a mass of disruptive facts, that from the dead will blossom a victory to bring a happier, freer Afghanistan and a safer Britain. All of this will happen, argue the MPs, through some process so far undefined. Meanwhile it is notable that the casualties' names are exclusively those of members of the British armed forces; the fighters on the other side and the hapless Afghan people who die terrified in their homes from the blast of the missiles do not get a mention. It is all very satisfactory for the Honourable Members on the green benches, dreaming of their expense claims while scheming of how most effectively to avoid any too probing questions from their constituents about the policy of satisfying the appetite of that voracious war.
This is reflected in the style of the heavily publicised repatriation of the dead soldiers, brought in flag-draped coffins to a military airfield and, after a ceremonial unloading, paraded through the streets of the nearby town – all carefully orchestrated and recorded by the TV news cameras. It would be a very brave person who defied this official smothering of doubts about the reasons for the troops being in Afghanistan. Part of this disreputable process is the eulogising of the dead who, one after another, are remembered, each in their own way, as a rare combination of courage, good humour, compassion, intellectual power...An example of this receptive attitude was a full page article by Audrey Gillan – who has some direct experience of Afghanistan – in the Guardian of 23 September about the late Corporal Michael Lockett: “...one of the most affable and funniest...one of the most courageous...handsome face and bright blue eyes flickering...Each time I met him I admired (him) more...” In another case – which did not have the advantage of being written up by a doting journalist – a dead soldier was praised because he had “loved” being a sniper – loved, in other words, practising his craft of abruptly and clinically killing people as if there can be no higher human talent.
Two Friends
But among the hysteria a more sombre and realistic event intruded – a young man by the name of Barry Delaney in a woman's dress weeping for his best friend Kevin Elliott who was killed in an ambush in August. Three years ago the two agreed that if Elliott was killed Delaney would attend his funeral dressed like a woman. On his last leave Elliott told Delaney that he was terrified to go back to Afghanistan and could see no proper reason for the British army being there. Delaney is chronically unemployed, living in Dundee where there is a persistent problem – which Elliott avoided by joining the army when he left school at 16. In this context it is particularly pertinent that the Ministry of Defence report a 25 per cent rise in army recruits in this year of the recession – more than at any other time since 2005.
Delaney and Elliott do not conform to the stereotype so lovingly fostered onto us by media hacks. Elliott told of many ingloriously gruesome episodes, such as while trying to leave the battle under fire having to scoop up from the dust the body parts and internal organs of another soldier. Experiences like that are likely, in every case except the most hardened or resistant, to devastate a person's morale so as to insert unforeseen, unwelcome and unmanageable aspects into their personality so damaging as to make the effect endure for a long time after the immediate experience has expired. The Guardian quotes Professor Tim Robbins, former head of trauma and stress services at St. George's Hospital: “If we are asking people to do appalling things, to take part in regular firefights and hand-to-hand combat, you get to the stage where it de-sensitises them to violence”.
Prisoners
The durability of these effects was illustrated by a recent survey by NAPO, the Probation Officers' trade union, which estimated that there are over 20,000 ex-service personnel – over twice as many as are in Afghanistan – being processed by the criminal justice system such as police, courts, prisons and the like. Of these 8,500 have committed offences serious enough to get them sent to prison, making a tenth of the total prison population and the largest singe identifiable occupational group there. In many cases their offences were the immediate result of excessive consumption of alcohol or drugs, or both. The most common offence was for domestic violence, usually by men on their wives as an anarchic response to the stress of the discipline required by a close living relationship. Typical examples are, firstly, by a man who went through two spells in active war zones: “Hard to reconcile the devastation, horror and distress of the war with the comfortable life” and, secondly, a man who in his first few days in the Iraq war saw a friend blown up; he now has nine previous convictions beginning in 2005, of which two were for domestic violence and he is known by his ex-partners as a “Jekyll and Hyde” character. Facts like these throw serious doubt on the official propaganda, abetted by the media weasels, that the British forces in Afghanistan are unique in being impeccably mannered and humane. In addition they raise the question of whether Kevin Elliott was driven to join up when he left school because the army offered him better prospects than a life on the bread-line.
Torture
An example of how soldiers, of whatever nationality, are liable to respond to the everyday stress of militarism was the case of Baha Mousa, who was working as a receptionist in a Basra hotel until the day in September 2003 when 120 British soldiers (from a group known as “The Grim Reapers”) raided the hotel and took him, with nine others, into detention at the Battle Group Main camp. It was there that Baha Mousa – called “fat boy” or “fat bastard” by the soldiers – was subjected to a process of “conditioning” – or more accurately torture – until he died with 93 separate injuries to his body including a broken nose and fractured ribs. A video recording shows Baha Mousa, with other detainees, hooded and forced into stress positions, being screamed at, abused and threatened. At the subsequent enquiry there was evidence suggesting that Baha Mousa was arrested and tortured because he had complained after seeing some of the soldiers breaking open a safe in the hotel and stealing money. One of the soldiers admitted to this but probably did not help his case by saying he wanted the money “to make a collage”. There was a court martial but, in what looked suspiciously like a closing of ranks, the blame was focussed on only one of the soldiers, who then had to plead guilty to inhumane treatment while the others were acquitted. Counsel for the Ministry of Defence did his best for his majestic client by apologising for the “brutal violence” and “appalling behaviour” of the soldiers. Which left just the government and the media to do their best to plaster over such an embarrassing episode and insist that things are different now, as the soldiers go about the business of killing and of being killed in Afghanistan.
Distress
The pressure on us to misinterpret the deaths, as the bodies come back, as nobly purifying is a cynically orchestrated propaganda exercise intended to justify the war, to obscure the fact that the great powers' interest in Afghanistan does not arise from any concern for the people of that country but from its position in an area vital to the interests of those powers, rather like the situation when it was an unwilling participant in the “Great Game” of Victorian imperialism. It is almost as a grisly tradition, that those same powers should readily support any Afghan tribal ruler no matter how corrupt and repressive – and that so many of the attempts to control the place through conquest have failed. It is hardly surprising that some of the soldiers should begin to ask why they are there and what the end will be for it all. The official response is to promote a massive lie with insidious propaganda fashioned to strait-jacket any tendency to dissent from the popular delusions. The killing goes on as the government gambles that their lies will be more acceptable than the distress of facing reality.
Wednesday, 31 March 2010
Socialist Standard April 2010 Vol.106 Issue No.1268.
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I don’t counterpose your basically bad,or intrinsically disordered ,’human nature’ moral argument with an opposite,”absolutely good and honest”.Far from it.My argument is not a moral argument,but a material one.
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Discussion on Telegraph
Ed Miliband: only Labour can rebuild our middle class
Political careerists are all part and parcel of capitalist politics.You are deluded to think any one party differs from another in this regards.
“Thank goodness I am not a Marxist” (Karl Marx)